Engineering The Future

Episode 43 "30 by 30" Bridging the Engineering Gender Gap

• Ontario Society of Professional Engineers • Episode 43

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This episode of Engineering the Future celebrates Women in Engineering Month with a special panel discussion on the engineering gap in Canada and the 30 by 30 Initiative, a commitment by Engineers Canada to raise the percentage of women who are newly licensed engineers to 30 percent by the year 2030.

Join host Jerome James and a panel of distinguished engineers: Marilyn Powers, Manasi Kaushik, Montana Wilson, and Emily Pepper, as they discuss the importance of increasing the percentage of women in engineering,  what challenges still exist, and what actionable steps need to be taken to achieve the 30 by 30 goal.

Panelists:

- Marilyn Powers, Dean of Engineering & Technology at Conestoga College

- Manasi Koushik, VP of Sustainability, Quality & Community at the Dexterra Group

- Montana Wilson, is the CEO of GRIT Engineering Inc. 

- Emily Pepper, Materials and Heritage Engineer at Arup

Jerome James  00:00
This episode of Engineering the Future has been brought to you by the Nuclear Waste Management Organization. NWMO is the national organization responsible for safely managing Canada's used nuclear fuel, a critical component of Canada's long term sustainable energy strategy. Want to learn more about NWMO most plans for the future? Is it nwmo.ca.

Female Narrator  00:29
This podcast is brought to you by OSPE, the Ontario Society of Professional Engineers, the advocacy body for professional engineers in the engineering community and Ontario.

Jerome James  00:43
Welcome to engineering the future, a podcast brought to you by the Ontario Society of Professional Engineers. I am your host, Jerome James. In this episode, we're celebrating women in engineering month with a special panel discussion. Today we'll be discussing the engineering gap in Canada and the 30 by 30 Initiative, a commitment by engineers Canada to raise the percentage of women who are newly licensed engineers by 30% by the year 2030. Joining us today to tackle this topic, is a panel of four distinguished engineers who have all made an impact in their respective fields. Marilyn Powers is the Dean of Engineering and Technology at Conestoga College. Manasi Koushik is the vice president of sustainability quality and community at the Dexterra Group. Montana Wilson is the CEO of GRIT Engineering Incorporated. And Emily Pepper is a materials and heritage engineer at Arup. Welcome, everyone to engineering the future. So to get things started, let's start off with a few statistics here. According to engineers, Canada, women make up about 22% of the engineering undergrads currently enrolled in engineering schools in Canada. This is about triple what it was 2005. It's getting better, but it's still not great. These numbers largely reflect disciplines within the biological or environmental areas. For disciplines such as mechanical software and computer engineering, these numbers fall to only about 14%. And finally, 13%, of licence holders in Canada are women. My first question with the 30 by 30 Initiative, what would you say is some of the specific challenges the engineering profession currently faces when it comes to gender diversity? And how do we address these challenges? Well, I'm gonna throw it to Marilyn to start us off.

Marilyn Powers  02:51
Thanks, Jerome. It's certainly a challenge being able to attract more girls into the field of engineering at the higher end sector. So what we're what we're starting to see some of the challenges are things like grade 10, physics, if a girl doesn't take grade 10, physics, she's eligible to even take engineering. And so they're, and they started noticing they're some of these filter classes that because girls aren't taking them, they can't go into engineering. There's some engineering schools that are are putting out bridge programs and other ways of doing this. I've heard some interesting experiments being being held where they change the name of the grade 10 physics to something else, and then the girls show up, and they sign up. So sometimes it's a, and I hear that they're talking about rebranding, engineering in a in a in a light, because just as you said, we are noticing that the traditional fields are attracting the women. But I myself am a biomedical engineer, so I can account for yet it's much more attractive to me to go into one of the more emerging disciplines that's coming out that deals with environmental or biological, any crossed with that.

Jerome James  04:06
And as the outgoing Chair of the Ontario Society of Professional Engineers, you're probably a little bit more familiar with the 30. By 30 initiative by engineers candidate than some of the other panelists currently with us. Can you explain a little bit more about what this initiative is all about? And how we're progressing towards 2030? Sure,

Marilyn Powers  04:28
I'll give it a bit of a stab. So back in 2010, so they had 20 years, they thought ahead. This came out of the picker group in Alberta. So the regulator in Alberta for engineers, saying we need to put more focus on getting gender diversity. And at that point in time in 2010, the thought was what we'll focus on women, how do we get more women into engineering, and they want to focus on licensed engineers. As you can, if you think about it, if I already just said that grade 10 is when we start filtering out. We need In a long span, before we get through the there's two or three years before they go into higher ed, there's a four or five years to get your degree, there's another at least four years to get licensed, it's, it's a bit of a stretch to get to 30%. By 30, when we were starting at such a, like 15%, I think we started that. But it's putting a focus on it. So engineers, candidates are doing many things. And this has put the focus on why aren't we. This is why we know gray tend to filter course. That's why we also know that to unconscious bias is coming out as something Oh, this is this is leading to the systemic bias. So 30 by 30, was this very narrow, focused, you know, how do we get 30% women by 2030, licensed engineers, and it's turning more into, okay, we're starting to uncover some of the problems. How do we get more in? And maybe it's not just licensure? How do we get them? How will we get more taking grant 10? Physics? How do we get more actually applying into engineering schools? And then where do we go from there?

Jerome James  06:05
Excellent. And so how does increasing gender diversity in engineering benefit, not only the individual engineer, but also the profession as a whole? And let me throw it over to Manasi to tackle this one. 

Manasi Koushik  06:22
So, thank you for that. It, it just brings a different perspective to the table and knowledge base, and understanding, a different way of maybe thinking about certain, I would say, you know, how, how problems would traditionally be looked at, right? Increasing diversity, in general, is just a great idea, regardless of the profession, but specifically in the engineering profession. Women, women just tend to think about solutions and problem solving a little bit more differently, and more inclusive, and taking account into the data, as well as the, you know, non data driven aspects of problems, which, you know, inherently when you're working with people, as I typically do, and most people do, that's the part that really tends to matter at the end of the day. So I think just increasing diversity in the profession, male and female, brings together better solutioning and better problem solving for things with different ideas, ideologies, backgrounds, education levels and experiences.

Jerome James  07:43
And this 30 by 30 Initiative is not just to get women into the profession, it's to get them through the educational process, and then licensed. What are some of the Montana what is some of the roadblocks, would you say women face through the engineering educational system that might perhaps hamper them from graduating with an engineering degree or sticking with it into licensure after getting their first job and working for a little while in the field?

Montana Wilson  08:20
I can speak to maybe a little bit more about what happens after university. But I think in general, just to make a statement is women need to see women at those positions. So it's struggle. Because we need women leaders, not only at an elementary school, we need women, science teachers, or we need more women in university and more women in leadership roles outside once they're done their schooling. Some of the challenges in getting to their license is when you graduate from engineering, you don't just become an engineer, you become a valuable asset to a lot of different companies. You don't have to go into engineering, on the problem solving and the critical thinking that most engineers have is a valuable skill. So we see a lot of women take, I'm not going to say easier paths, but less conflicted paths maybe to different careers. Because they seem more attractive for different reasons, whether that be hours work from home ability, things like that. As far as getting licensed. We really need more mentors or more people in the industry to donate their time and experience to young engineers, both men and female in the labor force we're in right now we obviously have in a lot of professions, a lot of the experience is retiring, but we're not knowledge transferring. And there's not enough of us in the I would say 35 to 45 age gap in the intermediate to pass along that knowledge to the younger group so often they feel a bit isolated. Because they don't have that one to one mentorship that they need in their career to be really strong technical engineers.

Jerome James  10:11
Would you concur with that? Sentiment? Emily, you're probably the the newest minted engineer on the panel, how was your experience going towards your PN edge from a workplace culture perspective? All the above? Yeah.

Emily Pepper  10:30
So, I would say I probably I broadly agree with what everyone said so far on that sort of getting down more to, I guess, specific challenges. So there's a few things that I've observed as well. So I spent a little bit of time working in England, I've worked in Germany, I've worked in Quebec, and I've worked in Ontario, and Quebec and Ontario. And they're sort of there's a whole series of roadblocks for getting licensed generally, that can be a little bit of a greater challenge for women that I find when you don't necessarily have that cheerleading element in the background behind you sort of pushing you to persevere. So not only when, you know, are you at risk of losing engineers, generally, by also women, specifically, immediately out of the gate out of university, you're also at risk of losing them sort of, after they've started engineering and sort of that, you know, first sort of two to three incumbent years, you'll see there's a lot of sort of, you know, people will come into, they'll get jobs in the engineering field, whatever, whichever engineering that field that may be, whether it's design, whether it's on site, or so on, or so forth, they'll sort of comment that all sort of eager, bright eyed, bushy tailed, and reality sets in that some things can be very stressful, and they can be very challenging and very difficult, which is oftentimes it can be received very well, sometimes it may not be, and that there's sort of typically a culture of trying, you know, persevere through just get through the sort of the, the grind, so to speak in the in the more junior period, which everyone says, okay, great, okay, great. And that has historically been sort of grinding it out. It's not too different from what you hear coming out of the financial sectors as well. But when you have sort of women coming into the disciplines in the field, and they're, they're starting to think about things and they're settling down, they're not just, you know, they're not just in their first year of working anymore. There are other thoughts that are happening, you know, how does this reflect on my personal time? What is the balance there, there's the genuine serious questions around family life, which should and are also pushed on male counterparts, all be with a little bit less pressure. And these sorts of thoughts start to conflate and convoluted and muddle the water in terms of what your priorities are a can I afford to be on site every day super early or super late? Or looking at sort of the the challenges and the risks and sort of the health and safety requirements that you have to go onto site or not? And of course, I'm speaking from a structural perspective, the wavering of can I or can I not manage this, with my personal time is, it's a pressure that does tend to be put on women more than men, subconsciously, or otherwise, you know, you might have a very, very nice, very helpful mentor who may be just asking you these things, trying to be helpful, but it almost sew the seed of doubt, in some instances, as well. And you go, Well, wait a minute, is this actually what I want. And so that's sort of that's one side of it, but persevering through all of that, too, there is like, you know, you have you have your office culture, you have your site culture you have there, and those are cultures that are very hard to change, they may not be subconsciously the most inclusive. So, for instance, when I was in the UK, I found a lot of the culture to enable your progression and to encourage you to be where you want get those projects that keep you enthused you have to be very loud, you have to be very pushy. And oftentimes, you have to do it at a pub. And, you know, that's, it's, you know, it's kind of it's, you know, the name of the game for lack of better way of putting it, it's that type of culture, which is, you know, if you know, the rules, fine, but it's not very inclusive. Because, you know, a lot of people and a lot of women in particular, we're not where we're told and we're the culture that is imposed upon women at a very young age is not to be that pushy, not to fight that way. You know, there's the stereotypes and old sort of the mean names that can be called to girls that are louder or louder than boys. When you're very junior and then going into that further, you have people that don't drink, right you have people that that don't have and they don't have that personality as well. And then or they just can't drink as well. And that means that or they can eat some things, certain things over others. And that means that you're not, you know, the last person standing at a networking event. And I think there is sort of a, at least in the more office setting, there's this challenge around what happens in the office, but off office hours where you build your allies and your friendships. And that can become very challenging, and every office will have a different challenge, like I've noticed differences in cultures just from moving from the same company from the UK to over here. But it does make things a little bit trickier. And you may find that you lose certain demographics over others based on that culture, nevermind also the innately challenging cultural environment that is being on site, and it can burn people out or wear them down, because they're not seeing the results that they want immediately, or as quickly as they can. And so they may just leave the profession before they get licensed for being paid more in another in another in another industry, nevermind the process, or the fact that there is a very long waiting period, that comes to getting your license from once you've actually finally got all of sort of the boxes ticked, so to speak, you've got your experience. Once you finally gone through all of those hurdles, you then have to wait a very long time to get that license actually put down in writing. And it is very frustrating that it will be very frank about and that that does also dissuade others from proceeding. Male and female.

Jerome James  16:42
I would say that, yeah, that's a huge issue of the waiting times for, for all the different steps in the processes to receive your license. In the end. I want to touch on one thing that you said, though, about self doubt. And it's almost a concept of almost, you have to fake it till you make it. What would you say has been some of the things that you you might have had in the past? I'm gonna throw it back to Montana here about that whole concept of not being not sure. And how did you overcome that fear and self doubt?

Montana Wilson  17:22
I'm just gonna say being a female on a construction site, and you've thrown in there full time you get over a pretty quick, at least I did. I think you have to realize you need to stand up for yourself, you need to have confidence in what you're asking, often you're the junior person, you're female, you're the odd one out. And then you have, you know, generally very senior males, and you're directing them. And they're like, Well, you've been doing this for 30 years. What are you you know? And, and it's not about being demanding with them. It's about, you know, being a team and being able to almost conflict, manage when there's decisions that need to be made. And ultimately, it's our staff and our decision make, but then working with those people on site. So some interesting characters, I think, knowing how to deal with people is particularly important how to communicate how to get people to realize that, you know, it's not us versus them all the time, that we really need to collaborate to get that project done. But it is it is a struggle. For sure. A lot of women.

Jerome James  18:27
Absolutely. Manasi, I see you were shaking your head in agreement. Did you have like a story to share or some of your lived experience with this topic?

Manasi Koushik  18:40
I would just say when when Montana was was speaking, I was thinking about just as a visible minority female engineer in that position. It's just a very different it's another layer of complication. Right? And so, yeah, I completely agree. I've been in that situation before and I've had to hold my ground. What really is beneficial in those situations, and what helps to support women who have to work in those environments are really the leadership, right? So I was, I was thankful enough to have a boss who always had my back, and always understood where I was coming from, and never ever looked at me as a female engineer, visible minority in any way. And that's huge. And I can't even speak enough to how big that is, and just making me feel as a young engineer that I was a professional, coming to work, talking like a professional dealing with others as a professional and that is the only way that I was being measured up against and not everyone has that. So it really goes back to you know, the organizations that young professional engineers are are getting involved with and first job, second job, third job. You know one of those, and even on the health and safety side, we say this all the time, but one of the things that young engineers and graduates really need to start doing is vetting the employers that they are working for or applying to jobs for. Because you it's very easy. Like going back to Emily's point of culture. It is easy to tell what a company's culture is and how people interact with each other. And so when you're looking for that first opportunity, outside of graduation, knowing that part of the role of going for an interview is interviewing your employer, and seeing what types of culture there is in place and embedded in policies and work life balance. And, you know, does everyone get together at five o'clock on a Friday and go out for social, right? So that's a big piece of it, and just having that support structure is really important. 

Jerome James  21:00
Well, it sounded like you had a champion, where you were at your workplace that really cared about your potential and your growth and that's, that's definitely important. Everyone should have a mentors at some point, especially when you're just starting off in your career. And it sounds like it's doubly important for women in engineering have someone that they can look up to, to help them through that process. Marilyn, I wanted to get back to you to talk about a little bit more within the education space. How do these kind of ideas around keeping women interested keeping the ball rolling, getting them from first year to graduation? Do women learn differently? Are they handing in assignments? Are they studying like? Or do we have to change the way we think of these processes? And educational perspective? You mentioned that, you know, changing the name of a physics class will inevitably get more women to join it? Is this something that is is a learned idea? Do women not see themselves in these spaces? Where does where does the ideas need to change to get women a) interested and then b) resilient enough to get through to the finish line?

Marilyn Powers  22:33
So I'm gonna start with today, once they're in higher ed. Okay, so we there's a pipeline problem getting them there. But once they're they're very persistent, that their rate of retention is 82%, which is quite high. Right. So once the women get into engineering, they stay in the program, right? We can talk what happens afterwards. I mean, I have anecdotal kind of ideas that if you if you came in and you went biomed, you might go into a regulated field, and therefore not ever need to be licensed. So you might be in sort of a, an engineering position, but you won't be licensed or anything. Because you're in a different state, you're in a regulated field, and therefore the profession itself is not regulated there. As for like the language, hey, I think high school is just, well, we've all been through high school, it's been, some people have great experiences and some people cringe every time they think about high school again. And if you have teenagers, so I my my kids are 17, 21, 23. They're very influenced by TikTock right now. They're friends and that kind of thing. And that is an area that I'm not really sure what what's being said about STEM in there. I think we could do a lot of marketing. I mean, the the provincial government of Ontario has been very clear in the last two or three years that they want more skilled trades. And I have heard it from the kids, right? High schoolers, they all oh, yeah, yeah. Thinking about skilled trades. They they've got the message it come from their grade 10 careers class. They're not getting that message around engineering, right. There's still that sort of I don't know what engineering is kind of phrasing. So there's still work to be done to even just explain what engineering is. And I think that's where OSPE is trying to do some educational work on the value of engineering. The this is what an engineer is trying to show engineers in all different kinds of fields and aspects. But when you come back to pedagogy, no, I don't think girls learn differently than boys. I think there's a lot of social influence into what's going on, not how they're learning. Exactly.

Jerome James  24:50
I think that's so interesting. With respect to what you said about TikTok. You hear those anecdotes. all the time about different TV shows that influenced the generation to go into certain professions, a Different World, the spin off of the Cosby Show, where they were in university, has said to inspire a generation of black and racial minorities to go to higher education from an HSBCU, or professions like engineering, and medicine. What would you say I'm throwing this to everyone right now is some of the intersectionality issues with regards to getting more diversity within the engineering profession. Because there's a lot of individuals that have multi-faceted intersectionality intersectionality facets of their being, and, and they're affected not just by their gender, but their race when it comes to opportunity. So yeah, how is these initiatives to improve the profession related to those other intersectionality issues?

Unknown Speaker  26:11
I can, I can give that one a start, because I kind of highlighted that previously. So like it does, a lot of it comes back to the culture, right. So going back to drinking as an example, or another is, you know, different facets of engineering will have a slightly different communication style, which may or may not be beneficial, or sort of better for certain sort of cultural upbringings. Right. So, for instance, again, I'm going back to more the structural aspect, I find the louder you are the generally the better it is, within reason, of course, you know, you've got to be very outspoken to sort of fight for yourself fend for yourself, get on the cool projects, or deal with the contractors on site, that may not be the most agreeable to you, you know, there's a little bit of, it's not necessarily combative, but it's volume oriented, which not everyone and not every culture values. And I've seen this with some of my colleagues, some of some of my colleagues who are not white, that they're sort of upbringing, particularly women, of racial minorities have, they were not able to tap into sort of that loudness that they needed to, in order to for lack a better way of putting it to get what they want. Because that's not how they were raised, they were raised, to be quiet and sit here with a lot of a lot of a lot of crap to be blunt, and to deal with it with grace. Because that is what that culture values. And that is not what at least in the structural and in the more construction oriented side, that doesn't, it doesn't really work very well. And I found I was actually I had to be not a mentor, but I had to speak out for some of my quieter colleagues of East Asian descent that are very, very technically competent and excellent engineers, but they would not put their hands up for a certain project, or for a certain thing, because that's just not part of their DNA of their upbringing, right? And that's something that I think we need to be more cognizant of. Now on the flip side, I was informed recently that other aspects or other facets of engineering so more in the robotics space, it's more the exact opposite. And again, so that presents its other challenges and, you know, each discipline, each subfield, they all have these different sort of ways of communicating that's almost like unwritten rules that you may not know of, know of, or about and different and it will sort of have a bias towards one culture, one racial upbringing over another.

Jerome James  29:02
Very interesting and you're saying that you stuck up for individuals and whatnot? Are there systemic issues that need to be tackled to make everyone from all backgrounds feel more inclusive? Or have a fair, equitable shot at obtaining the dream? I'll throw it to Manasi, to give her two cents.

Manasi Koushik  29:29
The short answer? Yes. So, you know, it really goes back to that concept of culture. And so, you know, there are definitely still obstacles and challenges and I'm gonna speak just from a corporate perspective. So I worked in engineering consulting for a number of years and now I'm working in a corporation. So that is the lens I'll bring to the table and yeah, there are systemic challenge, you know, with just either whether it's young female engineers who are too shy to speak up, or during an interview process, the questions that women are or receive are very different from the questions that men receive, you know, so if you are motivated, and you want to move up the ranks, and you go to an interview, and you're asked, you know, how does your your husband deal with you being away and traveling so much? That is not an you know, equal type of question that someone who might be a male would encounter. And so that's a type of systemic change that really has to take place. And there's been, you know, lots of movements on the HR front, with that whole idea of inclusion, where, you know, companies are doing things like not having the names on resumes that are submitted for job positions, because we are psychologically just trained to see if a name is Michael Smith, okay, they must be educated and well spoken and, you know, know what they're saying and be able to come to the table and present that way. Whereas if it's like Rajat Kumar, you know, Raghavendra, that's like, I can't even say the name. So I don't know if they can even speak English, right. So these are the sestemic things that have to change and need to change. And everyone needs to be a part of that. And on the other side of that, though, is that whole concept of championing so 30 by 30, is really the strategy is really focused on having champions in the in the organizations, whether it's at the institutional level, or the organizational level, the company level, and that's hugely important, right? So having things like employee resource groups, and to Emily's point, the person that the squeaky wheel gets the grease, that whole phrase, right? But it's really about corralling those individuals. So you know, female engineers and their allies, in their work environments to really bring those issues to the table and say, "This is real, we need to talk about it. It's based on facts and stats, what are we going to do?"

Manasi Koushik  32:14
Right, really problem solving it. So those are the two things that I think are really, really core.

Female Narrator  32:22
We hope you're enjoying this episode so far. At OSPE, we're here for you. Making sure government media and the public are listening to the voice of engineers, you can learn more at OSPI.on.ca

Jerome James  32:36
Access to resources, mentorship opportunities, networking connections, these are the building blocks of of change, of getting to our goal and the initiatives laid out by th 30 by 30 Initiative. How are we doing today on the worksite, Montana? Is there enough resources available? Would you say at your workplace at similar workplaces to have people feel that there are necessary resources that they can reach out to.

Montana Wilson  33:14
So I would say we're still trying to figure that out. The company for me is only a couple years old. So we're I think you have to be open no matter how old the company, though, to be honest. Changes happen all the time. We certainly haven't figured it out. But some of the things we're doing is supporting working parents. So we're finding that it's working very well from a gender perspective, too, because even our colleagues that are male need to be able to go and pick up their kids at four o'clock for the soccer practice. And we need that culture that that's okay to do that from every single person in that office. So I think there's an aspect of supporting working parents, both sides, that needs to happen in the culture in order for women to feel like it's, it's a good culture for them to work in and support their families. The other piece I'm going to say is, from a consulting engineering side, we are absolutely horrible as companies in letting people work like 60-70 hours a week and having that be normal. I was a lot I choose to work a lot. But we don't need to judge success based on the number of hours we work. So I think that's also something that needs to change. But from a business perspective, I think we need to get over the fact it's the right thing to do. It's also the right business thing to do. And I think that's what a lot of our leaders are missing today. We are, you know, taking out 50% of the workforce right away in an extreme labor shortage because you don't support women, or you're not trying to do things differently than we did 30 years ago. So I really do think the leadership and I see it all the time. I sit on a provincial board with other CEOs. There really is astonishment to not change, not embrace change and to not do things differently. And I think it's starting to catch up with them. Because they're losing employees, they're losing their workforce because they aren't inclusive or trying, trying to be better. I think people have patience and empathy, right, they will wait for that change as long as they see progress happening. But if you just say, we're gonna do the same thing, as we did 20 years ago, it's not going to work.

Emily Pepper  35:30
Could I just quickly add to that, actually, so 100% agree with you, Montana, I will say, it's quite funny. So my team now, I think, as of this year, in the structure scene, we actually outnumber women to men in the team. And the dynamic is completely different. And actually, in the office, we we are the fun ones in the group, were the ones with the cool ideas, we're always the ones that are trying to go out, do some do some socializing, it's we're kind of like the little positive bubble of happiness in the office. So we were I think it's a really good environment. It's a positive, different dynamic, where you're kind of closer to that 50/50 mark, because you know, just things become more organic, more natural and more comfortable.

Jerome James  36:13
Very nice. Marilyn, I want to talk a little bit more about some high level collaborative efforts and best practices. Can you highlight some specific policies or best practices implemented by, say, the engineering regulators or educational institutions that have been particularly effective in creating a more inclusive environment, and in supporting the advancement of underrepresented groups and engineering that align with the initiative goals by 30 by 30? And if there isn't too many, what would you suggest happens?

Marilyn Powers  36:57
So, I'm not going to I don't know necessarily anything specific that any specific policy, the general focus on how do we increase diversity? Has, throughout my career evolved, and it evolved from a women you need to do more to oh, wait, we have, we all have these unconscious bias, we all have these, you know, tendencies to do this, oh, it's not just women need to lean in, they need to step up. Now we're starting to also get into the what are the systemic biases that are in there, we talked a lot in in this, the other panelists about inclusion, like that's where I would love to see all of these get to is where we're not talking about increasing a certain diversity, but we're talking about making sure that we have good inclusion, which means getting there, it's fair, everybody can see how to get there, they know how to get there. And then and then we have some true inclusion starting. And, and that's where we start working with not just the underrepresented groups, like women and the intersectional intersectionality. What a hard word, oh, between, you know, between women and the different underrepresented groups, but moving to, let's include the men in the conversation, I mean, this is this is a system that they that they're also in that I also noticed that with my young kids that they're not going to buy into going to the pub that five b ecause they don't want to, right? They want to choose different ways of engaging so how how are we changing, you know, the culture of work in general so that you can do this and now I'm we've got work from home. So I'm not really sure how, how all of that's gonna pan out over the next few years, but we definitely need to get to this inclusion, where we're all talking about it and not just the underrepresented groups are talking about it. I would love to see the supports for the women and underrepresented groups that are there in the colleges and universities. So we we have many groups that in clubs you can join so that you can feel like you belong somewhere when it's when it doesn't feel like you can belong to the bigger group but I would love it to not feel like people in the bigger group can't join those. So somehow we have to get to that point. And and if you want to bring it back to like what what has been happening it is so we we've got lots of support groups for people so that they can feel like they belong as they come through. College, university also, once you leave, there's Women in Engineering and various groups like that, that gives you that but I would love to see the move to more. Let's talk about inclusion in general.

Jerome James  39:59
If we look at other historically male dominated professions such as medicine, or law, their numbers are approaching parity faster than engineering. What would you say? would be one of the reasons why say there's more parity within doctors in Ontario, between men and women versus engineering? And are there any lessons to be learned from other professions that we can bring into the understanding within the engineering world, I'm going to throw that to Manasi to take a stab at.

Manasi Koushik  40:39
So I didn't can't specifically talk about the medical profession or the legal profession. I just don't know enough about that. However, I would say, you know, a similar scenario to that is trade. So the trades profession was very male dominated has been for years. And there's been a massive push for women in trades, I would say in the last five years. Literally, every college that has a Trades Program wouldn't end trades is the their centerpiece to their program. And so, and that's well communicated, that's well marketed, it's well communicated. There's all sorts of you know, media campaigns around it. So I think with the engineering piece, you know,  there are certain programs that are out there that are geared towards getting more female or more women into the profession. But I really do think that, you know, as we've mentioned before, it has to be before, it's got to be at the grade school, high school level, right? So STEM programs to include boys and girls, I can tell you personally, I have some friends who have their kids that are interested in robotics program. And I predominant number of kids who go to those programs are boys. And so, you know, we kind of have to ask ourselves, why, what is not being marketed in a way to make it attractive for girls to also participate and partake in those types of programs that are available, you know, at those levels. So it starts well before, well, before college or university. How's that message not getting through, right? It goes back to curriculum and the traditional mindset of curriculum in schools and having that impacted?

Marilyn Powers  42:38
I also can I can I just pop in, I think there's going back to the my thought about it's social. Engineering is an invisible discipline. It's, we're the people who get things done, we make things. Somebody said to me the other day, we don't have our own TV show. And I was like, You're right, right. Like, if I wanted to, if I was a small child, and all I could see was, there's a lot of doctors on TV shows, I go to a doctor all the time, I see what they do. And if I've been in a hospital, I really see what they do. I can kind of see what lawyers do, because boy, there's a lot of them on TV too. But I don't see many engineers, right, other than Star Trek, which was big. And even. So one was Sheldon, at that young, Big Bang Theory. Big Bang Theory has an engineer, but he's the butt of all the jokes. So we're just kind of an invisible discipline in the in another respect. So if we want to get people younger, we have to think about what is our society actually, you know, holding up as as opportunities and what exists out there. And I don't think young people see what an engineer is.

Jerome James  43:51
So what are what is some advice that you'd give to a young, a young woman who is interested, curious, how does someone get into a mentorship program? Or they're starting their career networking in a professional manner? What is the 123? There, they're lost, they don't know where to start? Well, how would you direct them in the right direction to get them going? They've come to you guys as a panel for support.

Unknown Speaker  44:24


Montana Wilson  44:25
I can jump in. Depending on what level you are, if you're out of school, I would start with the association's so OSPE, you know we've got numerous other engineers candidate you got ACC got you all depending on which sector of engineering and maybe do a couple of them and start networking. People don't see the value in that I find in the next generation. You don't necessarily get that immediate return in that night. It might be two years from now and you're stuck on a project and you have this problem that you need to solve and you're like, Oh, I spoke to someone about that, that's what they did. And you can call them up. And engineers are often, you know, throughout my career more than happy to talk with you about any of your career decisions, even if you don't work with them. So start there would be one piece of advice in my advice to companies and to all of us is to take on more students. So we have five students out of a team of 30 right now. We need to raise them up. That's the only way that we get more people in it, and it's the only way we keep them in it, is to show them that there's good careers in engineering. In our case, there's good careers in Stratford. In smaller towns, you don't have to go to the GTA either. There's also that disbelief, too, that you can live and work where you want to live, work and practice engineering.

Jerome James  45:49
Excellent. So we've come to the, towards the end of our conversation here, we just want to wrap up some key ideas here, that we've been discussing today. From for a future outlook. What would be some of the key challenges that remain to be addressed in achieving our 30 by 30? Goal? And what specific actions can engineering stakeholders take to overcome these challenges? And to foster a more inclusive, inclusive profession? Let me start with Emily, to give your thoughts here.

Unknown Speaker  46:28
You gave me the hard question. So the long and short of it is there's lots to do, but we have come a long way from where we were. So when I graduated, I was one of 10% of the graduating class and civil engineering and undergrad, and then even just going into grad school. So this is this was an interesting transition. Going to the UK and doing grad school, I was going to 50% of women doing grad school over there, which was quite interesting. And it tells me that we have something to learn from other places where the representation of women and minorities is better than in I would say North America probably as a whole. So there is that. And there's something to be said there. And I don't I can't quite place my finger on it just yet. But I do think there is there may be to sort of Marilyn's point, we need more great, we need more exposure, because right now, you know, for instance, when I was trying to figure out what I was going to do, I never thought I would be an engineer because I always associated them with being, you know, the contractors yelling at each other with hard hats on site with shouting profanities at each other. I was like, Oh, that's not my cup of tea. But here I am very wrong and he go to site, maybe not so recent, not so frequently now. But I used to go on site quite a lot. And I think, you know, not to say that we need a female Tony Stark out there. But I think it would be good to have that sort of greater visibility as as a first step, not necessarily to have like pro engineering ads, but something of the like to sort of remind people that it's fun, like I know in. So in the UK, for instance, there's a lot of outreach to grade schools elementary school, specifically for girls in STEM and focusing specifically within engineering. So doing girls in robotics camps, for instance, or what is it like popsicle stick building tower competitions and stuff, which are fun, and they're kind of fun at that very young stage to pique people's interests. So I think that's something where we can do better outreach, particularly to the younger generations, but also separately to sort of the people that are in the engineering industry now. I think we need to be as an industry, more, almost gentle, more, more forgiving with each other and with ourselves. In particular, all of the female engineers that I've spoken to, or women engineers, apologies, that I've spoken to we've all suffered impostor syndrome. And you know, that doesn't mean that we're not good. And that doesn't mean we're not damn good. It just means that we doubt ourselves more. And we need to remind ourselves that that is natural. And that doesn't mean that we're not good. And if anything, it means that we are on the right path, and that is natural, and it doesn't, it's not something to quit over. And I think that's something where in the industry and with employers, we almost need sort of that messaging to be carried out, say, you know, continue on this path, be more forgiving with yourself. It's okay to doubt yourself. And if anything, it's healthy and natural, because it means there's another round of checks and so on and so forth. 

Jerome James  49:44
Great insight, Emily. And I think everyone should chime in on this last question from their own perspective. Just to recap, what are the key challenges that you see that still remain to be addressed in achieving this 30 by 30 goal. Montana, what would you say?

Montana Wilson  50:02
My immediate thought is construction sites? I think in the first four years prior to getting licensed in getting your experience, that remains a significant hurdle is the attitudes and harassment sometimes we receive on sites and how to handle that. And I don't have the answers for that. And I have staff that have experienced that and they come to me and, and it's hard to even having gone through it to give them good strategies on how to deal with that, because each situations, a bit unique, but making sure they feel like they have you have their back and supporting them is particularly important. But you know, women need to see women, I'm a big believer of that. So getting some metrics assigned to getting people on board, getting parodies and offices getting the leadership to be women. Yes, it's a really bright person for the job. But we also have to start putting a hard line to that like enough's enough, let's just move that dial, and we got to put some metrics and that's part of what 30 by 30 is doing.

Jerome James  51:05
Manasi. What are some specific actions, engineering stakeholders can take to overcome these challenges that remained to achieve the 30 by 30 goal?

Manasi Koushik  51:16
I think just having having the importance of inclusion embedded into an organization's, you know, purpose statement, the why, and the social purpose statement, particularly. So it's not just you know, as Marilyn said, this is something we're doing over here. And then everything else, how we run our organizations is a separate thing, right? It's how we do business and how organizations need to start running and functioning. And the one way that can happen is by having the appropriate supports, the resources, the champions in the workplace, to help to move this along. So you know, understanding that business as usual, isn't the acceptable approach forward any longer. And if you want to have a successful business, just in general, having the inclusion of women at the table is a key part of that. And so specifically in engineering, or even in general, having us at the table is important. And having a voice is really important. And so for us, like myself, as an professional engineer, being a mentor for others, you know, I am huge about being able to support other women engineers, that are women, but also that look like me, because I never really had that. And that's something I'm really, really passionate about. So being that, that ally and that support system for other female engineers who are visible minorities is, you know, everyone needs to pick their passion. But that is definitely something that I think can be helpful

Jerome James  53:09
And Marilyn, last but not least, what, in your mind are some of the remaining challenges that need to be addressed?

Marilyn Powers  53:19
I'm going to focus on the how do we get them into the into the programs in the first place? rebranding I think is is a way of saying it, putting making the the invisible, visible. So, what is an engineer? What could they be? And sometimes understanding that the language that we've used in the past isn't resonating with with youth today. And that maybe that's why we're not getting them. I think some of those are reasons that I I fell into engineering, right? Like I didn't, I'd never seen an engineer growing up. I still there isn't anyone back from where I came from that that was an engineer. So I didn't know what it was. And I didn't know it existed when the first person said, Oh, if you like maths, math, computer science and and you know, science why why are you not doing an engineering degree? And I was like, What the heck is that? Never heard of it? Right. So okay, that was a long time ago, but it still kind of resonates. My daughter, I tried to explain many times, she never really got what an engineer was. So, I think we do have to focus on somehow making that a little bit more visible as to what that is working on those high school credits, making sure that the that they're not weeded out. De-streaming math. First. I wasn't really a big keener on that. But now I'm starting to see oh, yeah, but it gets rid of systemic bias because it takes the decision making away from that grade eight decision into a later decision so that they're not de-streamed out of math too early, which is good. So these kinds of posts policy changes are moving the needle a little bit. But we have to remember that this is a system, and that the system is a bit broken. And it's geared towards, you know, the ways things have been done for hundreds of years. So moving this has to be looked at it through the system vision of how do we work on that there's many, many facets of it.

Jerome James  55:23
Wow, great conversation, everyone. I'm going to open up the floor now to any final thoughts that anyone has that they really want to say on the podcast before we bring this thing to a close.

Marilyn Powers  55:37
Let me echo Montana, what met what gets measured, gets looked at and gets done. So we'll keep putting the metrics out. Even if they seem like they're what is B hag big, hairy, audacious goal, even if it seems unattainable, we should be putting those out there. So that we're starting to get a focus and, and actually get to movement toward that.

Manasi Koushik  55:59
Also, too, I just wanted to add, sorry, I just want to add one last thing, which to build on, you know, publicizing what engineers do and get a little bit more around that, but what engineers can grow into as a profession. So as VP in my current job, I don't act day to day in an engineering capacity, necessarily, but I bring all of the skills that I have as an engineer to the table in my organization. So that's also a really big part of it in that professional growth and career advancement. It's powerful.

Unknown Speaker  56:40
I will just add quickly, just one more thing, kind of going back to one of Marilyn's points is engineering is really cool. And it can be really cool not to be biased or anything. But it can be a really, really freaking cool career. And I just don't think we do a very good job at telling people that, like I know, you know, for instance, all I'll give an example of some really interesting problems that I faced day to day, or we're so on to one of the architects that's on my project, and oh, my God, how you're dealing with this is really awesome. That's so cool. And you're like, yeah, it is pretty cool. But people don't see that when they're thinking, okay, math, science, physics, what they're hearing is pain and suffering. Right. And they're hearing a lot of challenges. And I think we just need to do a better job of rather than trying to prove to everyone that engineering so difficult, so challenging, and you know, so we're super awesome for being so dealing with such challenging and difficult things we need to go look at how cool it is, and look at the cool ways that I get to deal with things. And like, wouldn't you want to do this cool thing too.

Jerome James  57:47
I'm literally blown away by how much we've covered in such a short amount of time. Thank you all for sharing your expertise and passion and enlightening us on the current state of gender equity in Canadian engineering, and the importance of the 30 by 30 Initiative in shaping a more inclusive and diverse future for the engineering profession in Ontario. We've been joined by Marilyn Powers, Dean of Engineering and Technology at Conestauga College, Manasi Koushik, Vice President of Sustainability, Quality and Community at the Dexterra group. Montana Wilson, the CEO of GRIT Engineering Incorporated, and Emily Pepper, a Materials and Heritage Engineer at Arup. And as always, thank you to our audience for your ongoing support. If you have a question or suggestion for a future episode, please be sure to leave a comment. We love hearing from you. I'm Jerome James. You've been listening to engineering the future. And we'll see you next time.

Female Narrator  58:56
From all of us at OSPE, the Ontario Society of Professional Engineers, thanks for listening. Please be sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode.


Transcribed by https://otter.ai