Engineering The Future

Episode 49: OSPE 2024 Year in Review

• Ontario Society of Professional Engineers • Season 2 • Episode 49

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In this special year-end episode of Engineering the Future, host Jerome James speaks with the Ontario Society of Professional Engineers' CEO Sandro Perrzuzza. Together, they review the incredible work OSPE has done on behalf of engineers in 2024 and the exciting plans they have for 2025.

Sandro highlights OSPE's commitment to empowering the engineering community through inclusive initiatives, professional development, and outreach to future engineers. The conversation also covers key topics such as energy resilience, equity in engineering, and OSPI’s efforts to support engineers in navigating the evolving job market.

Engineering the Future

Episode 49: OSPE Year in Review 2024

 

Jerome James: 00:00.44 - 00:23.58

 

This episode of Engineering the Future has been brought to you by the Nuclear Waste Management Organization. NWMO is the national organization responsible for safely managing Canada's used nuclear fuel, a critical component of Canada's long-term sustainable energy strategy. Want to learn more about NWMO's plans for the future? Visit nwmo.ca.

 

Female Narrator: 00:29.21 - 00:42.82

 

This podcast is brought to you by OSPE, the Ontario Society of Professional Engineers, the advocacy body for professional engineers in the engineering community in Ontario.

 

Jerome James: 00:42.82 - 01:27.35

 

Welcome to a special year-end edition of Engineering the Future. I am your host, Jerome James. As 2024 comes to a close, we're taking a moment to look back at the incredible work the Ontario Society of Professional Engineers has done this year. From impactful advocacy that's shaping the future of the engineering profession to innovative educational programs that are empowering engineers, OSPE has been a driving force for change. To help us unpack the highlights of 2024 and give us a sneak peek into what's ahead for 2025, I'm pleased to be joined by OSPE CEO, Sandro Perruzza. Sandro, welcome back to Engineering the Future.

 

Sandro Perruzza: 01:28.10 - 01:31.51

 

Thank you, Jerome. It's really great to be back and it's great to see you.

 

Jerome James: 01:31.51 - 02:03.24

 

Likewise, likewise. So getting right into it. Sandro, this year we've had the privilege of speaking with leaders from OSPE's various task forces, discussing the importance of the work that they're doing in the engineering community. But to kick off things today, can you remind us, the audience, about OSPE's core mission and what the organization has been able to accomplish in 2024 to impact Ontario's engineering community?

 

Sandro Perruzza: 02:04.28 - 03:09.61

 

Sure, Jerome. I'll start with the core mission. I think it's really important people understand why we're here and what we're trying to accomplish. So our mission really is to engage, educate, and really enable the engineering community to lead in order to create a better future for our profession and for society at large. Now that's what I just said is a pretty bold statement, but at its core, it's about bringing engineering community together to lead important conversations that impact not only engineers, but everyone in this province. In fact, everyone in this country. We want everyone to have a voice and a seat at the table, regardless of gender, ethnicity, discipline, background, whatever, so that together we can work collaboratively to create solutions that benefit everyone. And as your members or as the task force chairs have all demonstrated, these solutions are based on evidence, sound engineering practices, and mutual respect and understanding.

 

Jerome James: 03:11.09 - 03:35.04

 

Excellent. That's great to hear. One of the highlights of OSPE's year is always the engineering conference. Can you give us a summary of how OSPE's seventh annual engineering conference went? I can't believe it. We're at seven already. What were some of the key takeaways and how do you think it contributed to the advancing of the profession supporting OSPE's members?

 

Sandro Perruzza: 03:35.90 - 05:12.03

 

Yeah, so this year's conference, as you know, was in Windsor, and it was a smaller footprint compared to the massive event we hosted in Toronto last year. But we thought it was important that we move the conference around to highlight the significance of engineering on local economies and local communities. And Windsor is a great example of that, especially with that mega project that is the Gordie Howe Bridge, spanning the Detroit River between Canada and the US. So, you know, when we source speakers, we're looking for speakers from local companies and the University of Windsor so that they had the opportunity to highlight the work that they're doing in that area that will benefit not just engineers and the communities in Southwestern Ontario. but communities and organizations worldwide. I really, you know, I had the opportunity to sit down in a number of the different sessions, and I mean, we had sessions on, you know, how local energy companies are building resilient grids, how to decarbonize buildings, interesting panel on how to properly engage and consult with indigenous communities on infrastructure projects, and so on. You know, the comments I had from people were that they found the sessions very interesting, different perspectives that were shared, really eyeopening. And, uh, you know, the, we had a bit of a surprise as well. The Canadian Navy sent their flagship Arctic patrol boat, the Harry DeWolf, uh, fresh out of dry dock. Uh, it was refitted with new technologies and they shipped it to Windsor, really shipped the boat to Windsor and offered conference attendees free tours over three days.

 

Jerome James: 05:12.03 - 05:12.55

 

Oh, amazing.

 

Sandro Perruzza: 05:12.92 - 05:27.85

 

Yeah, it really was really interesting though. It was the engineers on the boat that actually were able to talk about the different technologies on a boat that normally they don't have the opportunity to talk to. They really geeked out and our members loved it.

 

Jerome James: 05:28.85 - 06:08.12

 

That's great. That's amazing. I also love that you were able to get that local community connection to make the event very special to the community that it was hosted in. At EngCon, OSPE also made a point to introduce students to the engineering community, offering them a chance to connect with professionals and learn about industry advancements. How important is it for OSPE to nurture the next generation of engineers? And what steps are being taken to strengthen this outreach in the upcoming year?

 

Sandro Perruzza: 06:09.76 - 08:24.09

 

Yeah. So at OSPE, we always felt it was vitally important to engage students early and often while they're studying. Now, some things have changed over the last 10 years since I've been at OSPE. So, you know, I thought I'd ask that, did you know that only 22% of Canadian engineering grads pursue licensure? 22%. Oh, wow. They're leaving the engineering profession soon after graduating for a number of reasons, but the one that we hear is that they don't feel welcome. So we strive to change that, to provide networking events so they can fully appreciate all the opportunities available to them within the engineering community for meaningful careers where they're not only just well compensated, but where they can make a difference. So, you know, we, how we support them by inviting them to networking events so that they can develop a professional and personal network. invite them to engineering employment events to find out all the diverse opportunities within the engineering profession where they can apply their skills. And we also support the first year integration conference for new engineering students. The other thing I'll mention is that we'll also continue to work with the Engineering Students Society's Council of Ontario or ESCO to advocate on behalf of engineering students on issues that are important to them. Everything from tuition affordability, ensuring that the education that they're paying for is providing them with the skills that employers are looking for. and that the accreditation system is fair. And then the last thing we're doing is supporting them and their employers on the licensing process. Jerome, I'm sure you're aware that the PO has suspended the EIT program because of our practice legislation and the changes there. So we've repositioned our journey to P&G to be that replacement for the EIT program, which provides the engineering graduate that support system so that they know exactly what they need to do to get licensed. And for their employers, provide them with the confidence that, you know, when they, their employees or recent grads that they've hired, that when they're eligible for licensing, that they've met all the requirements so that they have that smooth transition.

 

Jerome James: 08:25.66 - 08:36.31

 

This is a fairly new development. We're on the path for recognition that this is in fact happening through OSPE with employers.

 

Sandro Perruzza: 08:37.49 - 09:29.67

 

Yes. So, you know, employers are struggling because, you know, when someone had an EIQ designation, they knew that they were eligible for licensing. So they had a sense of confidence that I can hire this recent grad or internationally trained engineer from another country who's come in and yeah, okay, they've got their EIQ status. So that means POs recognize them. That wasn't the fact, but there was that feeling. So we've actually repositioned that P&G program, the Journey to P&G program, to actually provide that sense of confidence. So we're working with PO to understand, you know, better what the requirements, the education requirements are, what the competency-based assessments. We've developed the programs. PO staff has vetted them. So we're fairly confident that we are going to meet both the employer's needs and the engineer's needs.

 

Jerome James: 09:31.23 - 09:44.0

 

Excellent. So it sounds like EngCon this year was a success. Are we going to be continuing down this path for next year? What's in store for EngCon in 2025?

 

Sandro Perruzza: 09:45.71 - 10:21.23

 

We're going to continue to bring EngCon to some smaller communities. So next year, we're looking to bring it to the Blue Mountains, the Collingwood area, and we'll come back to Toronto and to Ottawa as well. But what we heard from, again, the engineers in those smaller communities, is that they felt that they were heard, that they were being recognized for doing important work in those communities. And it was a sense of recognition they really appreciated. And that's what we really, again, we exist to provide engineers a voice regardless of where they are in the province. So we'll do that next year in Collingwood.

 

Jerome James: 10:22.48 - 11:00.13

 

That's an important perspective as well as wanting to make sure that the engineering community as a whole feels included. So switching gears on that kind of topic, earlier this year we had guests from both Black Engineers Canada and EngiCareers Canada talking about the state of equity, diversity and inclusion in the engineering profession in Ontario. Can you tell us how OSPE is actively working to increase EDI within the profession and what progress has been made in that area within 2024?

 

Sandro Perruzza: 11:00.13 - 13:44.38

 

Sure. Great question. So equity, diversity, inclusion, and accessibility remain one of the core values for OSPE and will continue to be in the future. What we were really doing is doing a lot of the research to identify what some of the obstacles that still exist are. And more importantly, how to remove them. I'll highlight three things here. There's many more, but I'll just highlight three things. The funding for the project came to an end. The work continues. But we looked at how to use procurement as a tool to encourage engineering companies to develop EDIA policies and programs. So again, the gist of that is governments, when they put an RFP out and they're evaluating a proposal, one of the requirements is that the company have equity, diversity, inclusion, and accessibility policies and programs, right? We're not saying it's got to be prescriptive, you know, set of policies and programs. Every company's different, so they'll develop what works well for them, but at least that they have programs in place and they are active in the organization. So if a company doesn't have that, then their score should be docked. They shouldn't be rewarded with public dollars that everyone pays for, that doesn't benefit everyone in that organization. So that's the first project that we're continuing to advocate on. Another one is a recent report that we've just come out with the Diversity Institute looking, and it's a follow-up to a study that was done almost 30 years ago, looking at the state of EDI within the engineering profession. and what, you know, what recommendations they made back then have put in place and what the effects have. I can tell you that not a lot has changed. There's been some progress, but not a lot. So we've kind of updated that with some new ideas of what needs to change and some new strategies on how to do that. And then the latest one is a project that just got announced November 1st. We're looking at hybrid workplaces, right? All these engineering organizations, actually all organizations have moved some sort of hybrid workplace where they're in a couple of days a week and work from home a couple of days a week. And, you know, everyone says this is great. However, there are some underlying risks and obstacles to career development specifically for equity seeking groups. So what we're doing is we're helping to identify those. and communicate the risks of hybrid workplaces and then coming up with some mitigation strategies to overcome these obstacles. So it's going to be a three-year project. Year one and a half will be doing the research and a second half, year and a half, will be on advocating for the changes.

 

Jerome James: 13:45.66 - 14:04.59

 

Sandro, can you break that down for me? What is the key underlying issue with respect to hybrid working and why does that just inherently make something inequitable or where's the underlying issue in your view?

 

Sandro Perruzza: 14:05.96 - 15:23.97

 

So what we've been able to identify, and this follows up on an earlier project that we did with Toronto Metropolitan University, and what we identified together was that there's a loss of mentorship and sponsorship opportunities, especially for equity-seeking groups, where when you're in a workplace, you're visible, you're seen, you have an opportunity to contribute, you have an opportunity to volunteer, to be part of projects. When you're not in a workplace, those opportunities aren't evident. They're not easily accessible. And oftentimes, you know, if you have, you know, a parent at home, you have a child at home that you're taking care of, the employer may say, well, that person is really busy with taking care of those issues, so we'll give someone else this task of doing this work. Well, that's a lost opportunity for development. So that's one of the obstacles we've identified, one of the risks we've identified. Where you're in a workplace every day, people will think about their, you know, the employer doesn't think about that individual's responsibilities at work. They just say, okay, you're here. Are you able to do this? Yes. Great. Let's give you the opportunity. So that's just one.

 

Jerome James: 15:25.58 - 15:38.71

 

That's a great perspective on the issues that are, people are dealing with currently in this hybrid work from home model that seems to not be going away anytime soon.

 

Sandro Perruzza: 15:38.71 - 15:48.84

 

Yeah, no, it's, it's, I mean, there, there are benefits to it. There are tremendous amount of benefits, so we're not going to advocate to change that. What we're, what we are talking about, okay, here are the risks. So how do we mitigate those risks?

 

Jerome James: 15:50.27 - 16:22.28

 

I want to continue on that path of talking about professional development. One of the things that sets OSPE apart is the vast professional development opportunities available to engineers. Can you tell us more about OSPE's Engineering Academy in 2024 and how it helps engineers stay competitive not just technically, but also in the areas with soft skills, such as leadership, project management, and digital transformation?

 

Sandro Perruzza: 16:22.28 - 18:57.08

 

Sure. You know, what we've been advocating for recently is that employers pay for the OSPE membership for their engineers. And if there is just one reason alone for employers to do this, is to pay that OSPE membership, is access to the Engineering Academy. It is really one of the most convenient and one of the most affordable ways to provide a vast array of professional and personal learning options for engineers at every stage of their career. We have courses there to develop their technical competence for young engineers or for engineers that are switching careers into new areas. We have courses on the not so soft skills around communications, teamwork, collaboration. For example, how to explain technical, very highly technical concepts to non-technical people. You know, when you look at your engineering teams or your workplace teams now, you have many non-technical people there, people on the marketing side, people on the finance side. So engineers need to know how to explain those technical issues and those technical perspectives to the non-technical people so they understand why they need to spend an extra, you know, X amount of dollars to develop this product or it needs an extra two weeks or one month to come to fruition so that they were given that latitude. So communication is key. We have courses on leadership development. We have courses on management development. And those are two different things. And if you don't know the difference, then these courses will explain the nuance. If you don't know the difference, then I recommend you take the courses. And you mentioned some certification courses such as project management and digital transformation. We have so many more others. You know, in the space of saving time, I'll highlight two others. We have a health and safety certification course and a tech stewardship course. Both are really important and ties into the safety perspective of being a professional engineer, of protecting the public interest. Yeah, so again, we have several hundred hours of PD on the engineering academy. Some of it, a very high percentage of it at no additional cost to members and then everything else at significantly discounted prices. So again, employers should pay for the OSPE membership for their engineers because unlimited access to the academy, which will further develop that engineer, which will provide dividends back to that organization. It's a win-win.

 

Female Narrator: 18:58.71 - 19:10.48

 

We hope you're enjoying this episode so far. At OSPE, we're here for you. Making sure government, media, and the public are listening to the voice of engineers. You can learn more at OSPE.on.ca

 

Jerome James: 19:12.49 - 19:51.01

 

Thanks for breaking that down. It really puts in perspective the value that the Academy offers and what you're actually getting within your membership dollars. OSPE also provides career services from consultation to coaching. How does OSPE support engineers who are navigating the challenges of today's job market, especially in the context of events like engineering employment events, E3? Can you share how these events have an impact both on the employers and engineers in 2024? Sure. So,

 

Sandro Perruzza: 19:56.33 - 23:02.61

 

I find, I find that engineers struggle with finding employment. Um, you know, we have these E3s, these engineering employment events around the province. And, you know, for, for listeners that don't know what it's about, it's basically, it's a job fair on steroids. We'll have anywhere from 12 to 24 employers in a room. And then we'll have about 200 engineers and engineering graduates come through and they're looking for, basically, I'm looking for engineers and engineers are coming in looking for work. It's a match made in heaven. And I've got many different disciplines there. And at the end, I talked to employers and they were like, you know, have you found anyone? I was like, no, I haven't found anyone. I can't believe I, you know, spoke to 200 people and I haven't been able to find anyone I need. And I find that very interesting because there are people there. And what we've realized is we need to do more education to both employers and to the students. Because I also, or to the engineers that are looking for work, because, you know, I'll eavesdrop and listen to the conversations. And the engineers are talking to the employer about how smart they are, you know, and how they could do this and how they can do that. Well, that's great. All right. You're an engineer. The employer knows you're smart and it's great. You can do this and it's great. You can do that. But that's not what my company is looking for. So we also have these job search workshops. We have articles. We have videos on how to prepare for an E3, how to prepare for an interview. And really it's about doing research into the company. Find out what the company needs, right? And then look at your skill set and try to match your skill set with what the company needs. So, you know, if you could talk about a project that you've worked on or something or a capstone project at school or something that you learned in a co-op and you're talking to a future employer, Talk about the transferable skills that you could bring that employer that are relevant to the employer. The other thing that the employers are looking for is attitude, right? For engineers who fit in with the company culture. That is really important. So again, not how smart you are, but I've got, you know, I got 50 other engineers. How will you fit in with what I already have? You know, are you going to work collaboratively with them? Are you going to be disruptive? A bit of disruption is not too bad, but too much disruption isn't wanted. So those are some of the things. And we're also educating employers and telling them about the job market and talking about how, you know, only 22% of engineering graduates are going into engineering. So, you know, you can't be looking for the perfect ideal candidate because a perfect ideal candidate doesn't exist. So you've got to look at someone who you can develop into that ideal candidate. So look for, again, look for the attitude, look for the skill sets, the transferable skills.

 

Jerome James: 23:04.24 - 23:26.82

 

Is that an issue? That's the crux of the issue. Students aren't coming with an attitude of showing their experience or trying to get to the experience point more, and employers are focused on trying to get the perfect fit and not someone that they can develop.

 

Sandro Perruzza: 23:27.75 - 26:40.32

 

Yeah, it's just that the job seekers, and it's not just students, it's other engineers that are currently working or have recently left their employment. The job seekers are doing their research on the companies that are there and really trying to understand what they do and what the fit is and vice versa. For example, I'll give you a great example. You know, OPG and Hydro One come to our job fairs because they're looking for several hundred engineers. So I was talking to a job seeker and he just looked at, you know, the, the, one of those companies and just went on. And I said, aren't you interested in working for one of those organizations? And he's like, yeah, but I'm a civil engineer and they don't need civil engineers. And I was like, really? He said, yeah. He goes, that's funny because they do. He goes, why? He goes, well, who do you think builds the infrastructure for the transmission lines and for the power generation units? civil engineers, right? So they need the civil engineers to go build the infrastructure. And then of course they need the electrical and mechanical and all the other engineers to do, you know, the transmission of electricity. But the infrastructure needs to be built. It's built by civil engineers. And it's, oh, I never, never realized that. And I said, there's a potential employer. You just walk right by. And they're looking for several hundred engineers. So that's an example of not doing your research on what they're looking for. And, and then the other thing on the other side is, you know, one employer said to me, he goes, you know, this is really great. A lot of real, but there are a lot of internationally trained people. here?" And I said, yes, because I wasn't expecting that. So again, I know engineers love numbers, so I'll throw out another number. Last year, over the last 12 months, 80% of those that were licensed by P.O. were internationally trained engineers. 80%. 80%. So, you know, the Canadian trained engineers are not going into engineering for this. It's only 22%. So who's filling these engineering jobs? It's the internationally educated engineering graduates, right? The IEGs or the internationally trained engineers is other common name for them. Well, that's going to significantly change the makeup of workplace. So going back to EDIA, now those, you know, equity, diversity, inclusion and accessibility programs and policies are even more important because that's who's coming in and taking the engineering jobs. Because, you know, so that's what we mean by providing education to both sides so that they realize that, you know, the ideal candidate is a fit. So how do we do it? And I understand, I understand the hesitation of hiring someone who is internationally trained, because again, the IT, the EIT program no longer exists. So these employers are concerned of, okay, I'm going to hire this person. I'm going to work with him for four years. They're going to be eligible for licensing. And all of a sudden PL says, sorry, we don't recognize your education. So I understand the risk and this is what we're trying to de-risk with our Journey to P&G program.

 

Jerome James: 26:42.01 - 27:43.13

 

Wow, these are some really important points with today's job market and hopefully we can come up to some sort of solution that makes sure that we can streamline some of these conversations between the person looking for a job and the employer so that we can get some great fits in the future. I want to switch gears again and talk about OSPE's value proposition for a bit. You wrote a piece in 2015 outlining the top three reasons why every engineer should join OSPE. Looking back at those reasons, do you think they still hold true in 2024? Have any of these priorities shifted, particularly with changes in the engineering landscape and OSPE's advocacy work?

 

Sandro Perruzza: 27:44.83 - 30:48.82

 

Yeah, that's a really good question. So, you know, back nine years ago, you know, we talked about the three reasons where the obligation to support the profession, you know, that our mandate is different than PO's. PO's is to protect the public, ours is to look after the interests of engineers. And number three, to amplify that voice, right? That the more members, the louder the voice. Yes, all three are still valid reasons and reasons alone why you should join OSPE. But we've just gone through our new strategic planning process and we're about to come up with a new strategic plan next year. And in the research that we did and talking to our members, an even more compelling reason has emerged. And it goes back to the OSPE being the voice of engineers. And here's what our, again, our members and non-members are telling us, because we reached out to non-members and said, how can we be of value to you? If you haven't joined us, but obviously we're not meeting your value proposition. So what do we need to do differently? And what are your concerns? And here's what we're hearing. We're hearing that engineers are losing their autonomy to do their work. that they're constantly being asked to shorten the time it takes to do work, that they're being overruled by non-engineers, they're not given the time to do the work, not given the money to do the work, the latitude to do their work properly, that engineering has become commoditized and that they are feeling even more and more undervalued at work. There'll be Passover and leadership opportunities by non-engineers. You know, there's this frustration, there's this angst, there's an underlying anger, and they need someone to advocate on their behalf because no one is listening to them. And I think, and now I know, that's what OSPE is all about. That's why we do the work that we do. to demonstrate the value of engineers, to talk about, it's not about costs, it's about efficiency. It's not about time, it's about productivity. Exactly. Right? It's not about developing something quick, it's about developing something properly. So that it's resilient, it stands the test of time. It's not going to fall apart. It's not going to put people at risk. That's what engineers do. And it's not something that other people can do. It's not something that should be shortcut. It's not something that should be undervalued. So that alone, if you feel like that, if that's how you're feeling, if that's what you're seeing at work with yourself or with your colleagues, That's why you should join OSPE because we are going to be actively working over the next generation or more, because this is not something we can fix in a few years. This'll be a generational change, but this is what OSPE is committed to changing over the next generation.

 

Jerome James: 30:48.82 - 31:06.82

 

Do you think that value proposition is, it's a marketing issue or did we lose something along the way? Where, where did that, notoriety or appreciation lose its way?

 

Sandro Perruzza: 31:06.82 - 32:25.12

 

Honestly, you know, Jerome, I need to first off thank the OSPE members for doing the heavy lifting, right? Less than 10% of engineers join OSPE. Less than 10% of engineers support their profession and the advocacy within their profession. They're doing the heavy lifting for the other 90% plus. But just that alone tells you what the problem is. When, when, when professions, when professionals don't invest in their profession, don't invest in their advocacy, this is what's going to happen. It's a self self-fulfilling prophecy. You know, if, if I'm not going to worry about looking after my interests, because I'm just going to assume everyone appreciates what engineers do. then if there's no one advocating on your behalf, then there's nobody advocating on your behalf. That's the message going to engineers, is you need to advocate. Every other profession is advocating. There are threats to this profession that people are unaware of. And because they're so focused on their work, and that's the beauty about it, that's both a wonderful thing and a fault about engineers. They're so focused on their work, that they're not looking around at what is threatening that work.

 

Jerome James: 32:25.12 - 32:26.38

 

Exactly.

 

Sandro Perruzza: 32:26.38 - 34:44.77

 

And I'll highlight again, just a few things that is highlighting that, that accountants are now having control over engineering work. You know, it's in a public domain, I'll talk about it openly, but you know, look at the problems that are happening at Bony, right? A new CEO came in, his focus was cutting costs, becoming more efficient. trying to, you know, down shifts or cut some of the engineering checks and balances in place. And all of a sudden you have doors falling out of airplanes. And you go on and on and on. And when you shortcut engineering, you not only put the public at risk, but you actually lose money, right? Look at the shares of Boeing went down. Look at, you know, some of these infrastructure projects that seem to go on and on and on. And it's because, you know, when they procure engineering services, they procured it on lowest cost. Well, of course, you know, whenever you shortcut costs, you know, you're putting something at risk, whether it's quality or safety or both. So that's, I think, one of the things that we need to do a better job of getting engineers aware of, and that's a call of action to join OSPE. The other thing, the other threat out there is that technologists are looking to expand their practice rights into the domain that is normally reserved for engineers. And if you go on the OSET website, there's a questionnaire out there now or a survey out there that they put out to their members around pursuing a professional technology certification. And we feel that, okay, that's great, but that's going to confuse the marketplace. Because engineers and technologists are both extremely invaluable members of an engineering team, but they are distinct and they are different. So, you know, that is another threat to the profession. Another, another way the profession is becoming commoditized and engineers need to, excuse the word inacular, but get off their ass, get engaged, get involved and to start to defend their profession.

 

Jerome James: 34:46.51 - 35:33.24

 

Thank you so much for those anecdotes. I couldn't say it better myself. I think that we definitely, from that conversation, we really need to kind of wake up in a perspective and take up arms almost and fight for what we believe in and make sure that our voice is heard and the public can hear us and see the value that engineers bring to the table. I want to shift gears one last time and start looking ahead to 2025. What do you see as the biggest opportunity for Auspeak in the future for its mission of advocating for educating and empowering engineers at all stages of their careers?

 

Sandro Perruzza: 35:34.35 - 38:16.77

 

Yeah, I alluded to it earlier, and I'm going to say there are two things. Now I've been here 10 years. I can't believe it's been 10 years. And we've accomplished a lot at OSPE. But one of the things we haven't been able to really crack is, again, that call to arms to get more engineers joining OSPE. We have had an increase in membership, and that's fantastic. but not to the numbers that we need. So again, I think we've done a lot in providing value. What we haven't really done a good job of is this call to action. So that's the first thing that we're going to start focusing on with our new strategic plan in 2025 and beyond is that call to action and demonstrating that, okay, you know, OSPE can't solve the problems. What we do is we provide the platform for engineers to come together to solve the problems. So don't look at us to solve the problem for you. We will organize, we will collaborate, we will amplify that voice, but this is your voice. You need to take control of it. So that's the first thing that we're going to do moving into 2025. And that's really around the advocating, educating, empowering engineers part. The second thing is really going hard and loud to engineering employers and encouraging our members and ourselves with a message of you must be paying for an OSPE membership. You pay for the license and rightly so because there's a dividend back to your organization that the engineer is doing the engineering work and they can't do it without a license. So that business case is pretty easy. The OSPE business case, they don't see it. So we need to do a better job of not only explaining it, but demanding that engineering employers pay for the OSPE portion of the license. So think of other provinces, right? You look, go to, you know, our province to the right of province, left Manitoba, Quebec, you know, there's not two organizations, they're one. And so when an engineering company pays for an engineering license, they're paying $600 or 600 or more for an engineering license, which also includes the OSPE portion, some of the advocacy, and they don't do it well. They don't do it nearly as well as what we do. but they still have that dual mandate. Ontario is separated. So you pay for your PO license and you pay for your OSPE membership, it's still cheaper than what they pay in Manitoba or Quebec. So that is the message to employers is like, pay for it. We've got all these things will help to develop your engineer so that it can be better. And not only, you know, an engineer license gives them the right to practice, an OSPE membership will give them the ability to practice.

 

Jerome James: 38:17.74 - 38:30.22

 

And how does that advocacy expense compared to other professional organizations in industry, other industries?

 

Sandro Perruzza: 38:31.42 - 40:29.72

 

Yeah, it's, it's a fraction. I know you look at, you know, you look at CPAs, right? Their certification, because it's not a license, right? It's a certification, is about 1200 bucks. Of that 1200, when I've talked to CPA, 400 goes towards the certification part, 800 goes towards the advocacy part. And similar to other organizations where the advocacy is, what they pay for advocacy is so much more than what an Osprey membership is. And for organizations, we have a new program, a group discount, where, you know, if they go and pay for their Osprey membership for their 50, 100, whatever number of engineers, we will discount their price. We will give them a bulk deal. So, you know, they can pay as little as $150 per engineer in their organization if they do a bulk membership. But, Jeremy, you're a professional engineer. Can you imagine, you know, your employer telling you how important you are to them, how valuable you are, how they can't find engineering talent, right? They're desperate for engineering talent. I'll throw in another stat, they're losing 15% of their engineering talent every year. On average, engineering employers lose 15% of their engineering talent every year. That's 15% of their knowledge base every year. And don't forget, engineering companies are a knowledge-based organization, right? So that's 15% of their value every year. And so, you know, their message to engineers is, you know, your value, we want to keep you, you're important to us, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And then you go to sense, that's great. No, I, can you pay for my Austrian membership that, you know, individual price is 230 bucks. And they go, Oh no, no, we won't pay for that. It's like, you know, this is investment in me professionally and personally, and you tell me how valued you are, but then you won't let me submit my Austrian membership as a, as an expense.

 

Jerome James: 40:29.72 - 40:32.35

 

Especially now that peak is, is mandatory.

 

Sandro Perruzza: 40:32.93 - 40:50.10

 

especially now that peak is mandatory. So that's a message to employers. You know, if you truly value your engineering staff, you know, and you want to keep them and you want to show them how important they are, for heaven's sake, the minimum you can do is pay for their hOSPEtal membership. And as engineers, you should be demanding it.

 

Jerome James: 40:50.10 - 41:02.11

 

Excellent. We've covered so much ground today. Um, I really appreciate you taking the time to break these ideas down. Do you have any final thoughts to leave our listeners, uh, for today?

 

Sandro Perruzza: 41:03.09 - 42:05.09

 

Yeah, I'll try to talk about a lot of issues. I'll try to finish on an optimistic note. One of the things we did differently this year as well is change our message on an advocacy point with government to really talk about the economic benefits that engineers bring to governments, to society, right, to the economy. And it's a message that resonated well. We did our very first Parliament Hill Day in Ottawa as well. And that really resonated with a lot of the MPs. You know that there's a potential election provincially next year and a potential election federally next year. And I can tell you OSPE is well positioned with both those levels of government to make sure that that engineering voice is going to be part of some of the election platforms moving forward. So for engineers out there, there's going to be an election. Here's another opportunity to make sure your voice is heard. Vote. Vote for parties that are engineering friendly.

 

Jerome James: 42:05.09 - 42:30.16

 

And I believe that OSPE is well positioned to make that case to the public and to its members as well. I think this is a great way to end the discussion, Sandro. Thank you so much for sharing your expertise and bringing us up to date on this incredible work that OSPE has done in 2024. We really appreciate your time and insights today.

 

Sandro Perruzza: 42:30.86 - 42:42.94

 

Well, thank you, Jerome. And thank you for the work that you do. And I really appreciate the opportunity you have for engineers to tell their stories and tell the work they're doing to the public.

 

Jerome James: 42:42.94 - 43:10.70

 

So thank you. And as always, thank you to our audience. We continue to appreciate your support and are really excited to bring you more engaging and insightful guests in 2025. If you haven't already, please be sure to subscribe and leave a review. I'm your host, Jerome James. You've been listening to Engineering the Future, and we'll see you next time.

 

Female Narrator: 43:10.70 - 43:19.09

 

From all of us at OSPE, the Ontario Society of Professional Engineers, thanks for listening. Please be sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode.