Episode 14: Engineering Your Motherhood: Strategies For The Working Mom with Pros & Babes

Engineering the Future host Jerome James, P.Eng., speaks with Kinia Romanowska, the founder of Pros&Babes and creator of the “Mom MBA”, Canada’s only 360-leadership and personal development program designed for the busy, ambitious mom, and Melanie Richmond, P.Eng., a civil-environmental engineer who has benefited from Pros & Babes program.

Transcript

[Start of recorded material 00:00:01]

Jerome:             [00:00:00] This episode of Engineering the Future is brought to you by Member Perks for OSPE, helping engineers and their families save money on everything from electronics and food to apparel and home improvements. New perks are being added all the time. Visit Member Perks for OSPE before you shop and enjoy exclusive savings from brand names and local favourites online, kerbside and in-store.

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Female:             [00:00:28] This podcast is brought to you by OSPE, the Ontario Society of Professional Engineers, the advocacy body for professional engineers in the engineering community in Ontario.

Jerome:             [00:00:43] Welcome to Engineering the Future, a podcast presented y the Ontario Society of Professional Engineers. I am your host, Jerome James. Today I'm joined by Kinia Romanowska, the founder of Pros&Babes, and creator of the MoMBA, Canada's only 360 leadership and development program designed for a busy, ambitious mum.

                          Also with us today is Melanie Richmond, a civil and environmental engineer [00:01:13] who has benefitted from Pros&Babes. Welcome to you both.

                          To start off with, Kinia, can you tell us what Pros&Babes is and why you started it?

Kinia:                [00:01:27] Yes, thanks for the question, Jerome. I'm super-happy to be here. So, when I was pregnant with my first son, I heard that I'd missed the intellectual conversations on maternity leave. And I was heavily involved in women in leadership programming, but I noticed that we didn’t have anything for mums. 

                          So, when I had my little guy in tow, I decided to start bringing mums together for an intellectual mums’ group, and we started talking about back-to-work planning and what it means to be a mum who has a career. And we realised that there was an enormous gap in resources for managing these transitions.

                          And so, being an investigative journalist by trade, [00:02:01] I developed this enormous vault of content that, over a couple of years, turned into what is called the MoMBA program today. We noticed that mums need a lot of intellectual support, emotional support, psychological support to return to work and to be a thriving working mum. And so that’s how we took off, and that’s how I started a hobby that turned into my fulltime occupation. 

Jerome:             [00:02:26] And how long did it take for the full transition to occur from conception to fulltime job?

Kinia:                [00:02:36] Well, it depends on every parent, and how much clarity they have on what success looks like for them. When we become a parent, our values change, and so the clearer we are on what we want to design at home and at work and in our relationships, the faster this transition can take place. The longer we wallow in the pain of not knowing and not getting the support, the more painful the transition is. And for some people it drags out for years and throughout the different children they have. [00:03:06]

                          So, Melanie can probably tell you more about her own experience of that transition, but it’s very individual to every parent and how they define success.

Jerome:             [00:03:15] Right, but personally, for you, how long did it take for you to go from a fulltime position to then Pros&Babes being your fulltime position?

Kinia:                [00:03:24] Oh, I see. Well, about two years after launching it as a hobby when my youngest was almost – sorry, my oldest – now I’m trying to think, I'm trying to do the math – I can't remember, but I started doing this fulltime about two years after starting it, and it’s been my fulltime occupation for about two years now. 

Jerome:             [00:03:44] Excellent. And Melanie, what was the transition like for you when you became a mum, in addition to being an engineer?

Melanie:            [00:03:56] Yes, thanks Jerome. I would say that there’s kind of two parts to that transition. There’s the part where you're working as an engineer, building your career, and then you find out that you're pregnant and that you are creating a little human inside of you, while still working as an engineer. So that period can be challenging at times, because typically the first trimester, you don’t share the news with your coworkers, or your work is not aware of it. And there can be a lot of nausea and reasons that you're not showing up like you normally would. [00:04:28]

                          So, there’s a bit of that component at the start, and then obviously you start to show, and it’s exciting, and there can be a lot of – you know, a lot of support within organisations, with you being pregnant, but there’s also challenges, as you will be leaving. Or typically people will take some sort of maternity leave.

                          So sometimes there can be a sense of being devalued, or not considered for certain projects. [00:04:57] In my case I was really well-supported, and I was really happy with how it happened. It happened that the project I was working on, the big one, was finishing right before my leave. So that transition went very well.

                          And then the actual component of becoming a mother and going through the birthing process, is a whole different transformation, and Kinia and her program touches on it a lot. But it changes you as a person. You see the world through a different lens, [00:05:30] and what you thought you knew before, or what you thought you valued before might have changed. 

                          And this shows up also in how you work and how you want to spend your time, and what you prioritise. So, I returned to work last April after ten months being on maternity leave. And my husband also shared the leave with me, and it was definitely challenging at the start, because for ten months I had been [00:06:00] physically drained and emotionally drained but had not had as many of those mental stimuli conversations that Kinia was talking about, from these mums’ groups that she’s created. So going back to using your brain eight hours a day was totally different and it took a bit of an adjustment period. 

                          But there are so many positives with the Pros&Babes community that has helped me with this transition. Having other working mums that are going through [00:06:30] similar experiences or have already gone through some of these experiences and can share their knowledge, and taking it one step at a time, has really been beneficial.

Jerome:             [00:06:43] Excellent. Kinia, what is the biggest struggle that mums have right now, and how can Pros&Babes help? 

Kinia:                [00:06:55] Yes, I'd say what I'm observing is the shift to a new identity, and not necessarily aligning that with the working environment. So, as I mentioned earlier in our discussion, your values change when you become a mum. Women who were always very career-oriented and thought that they would always be pressing that gas pedal, you know, to drive on their careers, realise that there’s a new component of them. And perhaps they don’t take the time to truly examine how all the different aspects [00:07:25] of their lives are affected by being a mum.

                          And I'd say, Melanie, you’d probably agree, one big aha moment we had in the community is asking for help and putting in the support systems. We had this huge aha moment in September, and I think you didn’t really struggle too much with that. But a number of women said, “Oh my goodness,” you know, they hired a personal chef, a handyman or handyperson, you know, a cleaning service. 

                          And they realised that they resisted this for really long, because growing up they saw maybe their parents doing everything on their own. [00:07:55] But their parents grew up in completely different circumstances, right, or a different work pace. 

                          And so many women who are used to being high performers struggle with asking for help, and once they actually do ask for help and they do outsource, even if they thought their budget was tight, they realise how much of their quality of life they get back, how much mental bandwidth they get back, right.

                          So, I'd say that is one of the big things that we see, is acknowledging and accepting, and really being fast [00:08:25] in terms of pulling the trigger on getting those support systems in place, so that you don’t sink. and you get to a point of burnout. The risk of burnout is very real if you're trying to be everything to everyone, whether it’s at home and at work and in your relationship, you’ll find that you're burning the candle at both ends.

Jerome:             [00:08:43] Right, and it seems that a lot of people are struggling with that, especially with added stresses of COVID and possibly juggling working from home. And having two people working in close proximity that never used to work in close proximity before, has had its own ups and downs and struggles, I’ve been hearing. 

                          Melanie, is this the case for you? [00:09:14] Have you experienced burnout since becoming a mum, and how has Pros&Babes helped you through your transition?

Melanie:            [00:09:25] Yes, I would say even before becoming a mother, any engineer can experience burnout, and it’s something that I think in our corporate world where we’re rewarded for working really hard, and sometimes being on the gas pedal too long.

                          And it’s not sustainable; everybody needs to put fuel in their car and stop and rest, and also do some maintenance checks on it. So, as a mother, you're adding a whole set of kids in the back of your car, so when you're driving [00:09:55] at full speed, the risks are a lot higher. 

                          So similarly, when you're working it’s, if you're going to burn yourself out at work, how are you going to be when you walk in through that door that evening? Are you going to be able to be the mum you want to be? 

                          So I think it comes down to any aspects of life, like, how are you going to show up at work, how are you going to show up for yourself and your family and your partner? And Kinia’s program is very much a three-sixty look at it in terms of, your energy [00:10:25] in all those aspects of your life, it’s not just work. Like, work is a piece of the puzzle, right, it’s a piece of the pie. And it is part of your identity, but it’s not all of it.

                          And for me, I've always liked outsourcing. I value my time, I realty prioritise having fun with my family, and we love to golf. So, we outsource our cleaning, I get help with meals, [00:10:55] we hired somebody for painting, we are also business owners – we own rental properties. I'm also a yoga instructor, which I do for fun. 

                          So, there’s lots of different aspects beyond being a working engineering mum, that in order to do all that, I absolutely have to outsource. And that’s the life that I want to design for myself, and I want to teach that to my kid.

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Female:             [00:11:21] We hope you're enjoying this episode so far. At OSPE we’re here for you, making sure government, media and the public are listening to the voice of engineers. You can learn more at OSPE.on.ca. 

Jerome:             [00:11:36] I have a follow-up question: did you find that your employer was understanding of the many stresses in your life, and what all it entailed to be a new mum, as well as being in the workforce? 

Melanie:            [00:11:58] I would say that for the most part, they’ve been very supportive. It is different, I would say, for a mum than a partner, let’s say a dad or another mum. There is something about a child-mother relationship, and there’s that special bond, so especially in the States, when they return to work a lot earlier than in Canada.

                          I went back to work after ten months, and from [00:12:28] a bonding perspective, you have a very serious bond with your child for the first two years of their life. So, from an emotional standpoint it was very hard on my son to be going 100 percent with me being on maternity leave, to being 100 percent working. That was a huge shift.

                          And with the way that EI is set up in Canada, it’s hard not to do it that way. Some people do it differently, and I would have liked to do a gradual start, [00:12:58] but there’s negatives to that too, because my husband also wanted to take paternity leave, so we had to pass the baton. 

                          So, there was challenges there from an emotional standpoint that I find employers might not be quite aware of, and breastfeeding is another component to consider, which I think employers have made advancements with actually providing breastfeeding rooms in offices, not just using a bathroom or a corner, a closet.

                          [00:13:29] But then there’s also the emotional component for the parent, if it’s the mother or the dad or the partner. So, like I said, you had, you know, your whole day with your kid and then you go from having maybe an hour, and hour and a half in the morning, where you're rushing to get them ready, out the door, and then you're driving them to, let’s say, day home.

                          So, you get maybe fifteen to twenty minutes of quality time with them, and then you're rushing to get off work early, [00:13:59] which often times your coworkers are still working, and you might feel guilty, but you do it, because you have to pick up your child from childcare before they close. And when they see you, there can be an emotional reaction there too, and then you might have another two to three hours with them in the evening, depending on what stage they're at, or how old they are. 

                          So, it is a big shift for the parents as well, to have a lot less time with them. [00:14:28] So now, let’s say there is a priority project or a proposal that I need to work on, I’ll say, “I have to leave at 4:15 at the latest in order to get my child from daycare at five, because that’s when it closes.” And then I can jump back on after bedtime, which is eight o'clock, and do some work.

                          So, I think establishing boundaries with your work and getting a sense of understanding of where you're coming from, so that, you know, there can be some empathy towards one another and understanding, [00:14:58] and knowing that it’s a team effort and we have to support each other. And there’s other alternatives to getting something to work from a delivery standpoint.

                          So, I would say that we’re getting there. There's still, I think, a little bit of eye opening to happen.

Kinia:                [00:15:20] Yes, and you know what, what Melanie’s story emphasises is that there’s so much opportunity to think more creatively and by design for these maternity leave transitions. And you know, our colleagues from the United States look at us and say, “Oh, you get twelve, eighteen months of maternity leave; how wonderful. You guys in Canada have it all figured out.” 

                          But there’s also a downside to, let’s say, being completely cut off from your professional identity. You go from having a career one day, to being completely alone at home with a child [00:15:50] who needs you 24/7. No instruction manual, no team necessarily. Some people have their families far away, so there’s a huge shift.

                          And I’ve interviewed some mums who actually planned a kind of part-time work schedule where they would work one day a week on a project to stay connected. Huge benefits for mental health. But other environments are completely not open to that, right, so it all depends on –

                          Actually, they say that no matter how good your policies are at your company, what really influences [00:16:20] the experience of maternity or parental leave, is the manager that you have and the dialogue you have with them. 

                          So, you were asking the question, how can Pros&Babes help. Well, it’s designing that working parent and maternity leave transition, not boxing yourself in just because we have, you know, this twelve-month or eighteen-month maternity leave, that it has to be this way, you have to be completely disconnected from work. 

                          Or you know, people say, “Well, have those two donuts, we’ll see you in twelve months, send us pictures,” [00:16:50] without considering the huge impact of a leave on a career, on career advancement, on career opportunities. 

                          So, the opportunity that we see, talking to Melanie, there’s still a lot of room for growth for employer-employee dialogue, mentorship, coaching, to make sure that the maternity leave transition is a leadership opportunity. 

                          43 percent of women in STEM leave fulltime STEM employment after having kids, and it’s 20-something for men. [00:17:21] So that means that there’s something that’s misaligned there, and this transition can be used as an opportunity to design success, versus kind of saying, “OK, the employee’s gone for twelve months, let’s forget about them and then when they're back we talk.” 

                          You know, it’s not very oriented towards making this transition a success, and sometimes it’s unintended; employers have to respect privacy policies and communication policies, but inadvertently that can lead to women’s careers being really affected by the lack [00:17:50] of planning and lack of design around success parameters for both employee and employer.

Jerome:             [00:17:56] Right, and in other industries, I know for other reasons, such as towards retirement, to stay on the payroll, some professions are allowed to – individuals in those professions are allowed to pick up a shift here and there, just to stay relevant. And if they miss a certain amount within a month, then they're dropped.

                          So, I don’t see why you can't incorporate some of these same [00:18:26] kind of concepts in a project base kind of perspective to make that happen within engineering. That would be a real boon for individuals and new mums. 

                          Kinia, we’ll go back to you. You're the creator of the MoMBA. Can you tell us more about this? What does this mean?

Kinia:                [00:18:53] Yes. So, it’s a transformational process. It helps mums and their partners – we have dads often participating kind of behind the scenes, who are loving the content. But it’s a community, it’s a learning community, it’s a networking community and online learning platform where you organise your life as a working mum, and you set yourself up for success.

                          So, what happens in a mum’s life is that everything changes and it’s hard to wrap your mind around all the different categories of life. So what we do is, we break it up into about twelve pillars [00:19:22] from mindset to relationships to support systems, financial planning, career skills, emotional intelligence or leadership development. 

                          And we break it up into those twelve monthly pillars, where mums come together and design what they want in every single category. So, you know, you join weekly group sessions to learn, to discuss, and you also have a drip every single day around the content that matters to mums. And by the end of the program, they should have this, [00:19:52] I'd say, mini constitution for their life as a working parent, having identified what matters to them, what action they need to take, what tools they need to use to thrive and not just keep their head above water. 

                          So that’s what the program is about. It really is cut and designed to fit a busy mum’s schedule, so discussions are either at lunchtime or after the kids are in bed, where mum can participate. Because so many leadership opportunities happen at cocktail hour, where the parents are busy putting kids to bed, right. 

                          So, we wanted to design something [00:20:22] that actually did align with mum’s schedule, and also her – you know sometimes you have a baby in your arms, right, so you need learning materials that actually can align with you having your hands busy. So we’ve designed the program and the content in a way to fit the busy mum’s schedule and lifestyle.

Jerome:             [00:20:39] That’s excellent. And how many graduates of the MoMBA are there currently?

Kinia:                [00:20:47] So there – right now we have about twenty-three participants in the program, and we started working more closely with corporations who want to make diversity and inclusion policies more central to their areas of practice. And yes, so that’s where we stand. And then we’ve worked with hundreds of mums over the years too in our various programming.

Jerome:             [00:21:05] Excellent. Melanie, what piece of advice do you have for parents out there who are working in engineering or other demanding fields, who are about to become parents?

Melanie:            [00:21:21] Yes, the first word that drops in is trust. I think as a society, especially in engineers, we’re very analytically driven. But yes, we have to trust what we can do as parents. We are humans and we were put on this earth before all of the websites and baby books and everything, to teach you how to raise a child. So, I think from an intuition standpoint, that’s huge. 

                          I think there can be a lot of self-doubt. [00:21:51] And be kind to yourself, especially when it comes to whatever transition that you're going through, from the creation, the birthing, or returning to work, that it’s all a phase and it’s going to move really quick, and you’ll be back on track with your career. And especially if you have a vision as to where you want to go, what you value, boundaries around what you're going to say yes to, [00:22:21] what you're going to say no to, and having the right community and support.

                          So, having the MoMBA ladies around has been my cheer squad. If there’s tears happening, they're there, or if I'm struggling, taking the next step on something, they encourage me to pursue. It lights me up or energises me, so it’s been a great program and I'm very thankful for it. [00:22:53]

                          And also from a career standpoint, I've seen a lot of growth. I just had a performance review, and it went really well in terms of how much has changed in the last six months since my return.

Jerome:             [00:23:05] Six months. 

Melanie:            [00:23:06] So, it’s not only from being a mum and making it work with work, it’s really growing in all aspects of your life. And the financial part is one that we’re touching on this month, which is a lot of fun. 

Jerome:             [00:23:22] Wow, thank you so much for such a great riveting conversation. I feel like I’ve learned so much about working mums, working parents, individuals with professions and getting everything done. I feel like there’s hope, and people that are feeling overwhelmed should definitely look up Pros&Babes to get a few pointers. 

                          I’ve been speaking with [00:23:52] Kinia Romanowska, founder of Pros&Babes and Professional Engineer, Melanie Richmond. And thank you very much for being here.

Kinia:                [00:24:04] Thank you.

Melanie:            [00:24:05] Thank you so much. 

Jerome:             [00:24:09] And I'm your host, Jerome James. Thank you for listening to this episode of Engineering the Future.

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Female:             [00:24:18] From all of us at OSPE, the Ontario Society of Professional Engineers, thanks for listening. Please be sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode.

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